The post concerning the 100 bear, bear dog brings up something I think should be discussed here. It is something I have seen happen so many times to too many good people. Dog jockeys and slick advertisers might not like what I have to say, but I am gonna share a little secret.

We have all seen the glossy adds in the magazines, internet, or talked to some "trainer" out west who is selling a "top notch" big game hound.

We hear things like this....the dog has been on over 30 lion last season, or he has been on 65 bear and had 20 shot out to him, or tree's good and is not ill in any way, or will rig from the box, or the list goes on and on and on. The higher the price, the more instant value the dog must have.

Well, here is the deal. Some, and I mean a very few of these dogs are the real deal. I would say less than 1% of these dogs can actually do anything at all with a track by themselves.

Here is what happens. Joe Blow dog jockey/big game hunter has a train load of hounds. He has another train load of mostly kids helping him run all these hounds. They load up 10 or so dogs per box and hit the hills cutting for tracks because they have a paying client who has a lion or bear tag. Someone cuts a track, they send 10 or so dogs down that track, then another track is found, they ship another 10 or so dogs down that track, and it goes on and on, day in and day out. The client rides around, or sits in a motel room somewhere until something finally tree's. He gets there, the "guide" gets there, and they go to the tree. Well guess what? Maybe 3 or 4 or so dogs are at the tree. They take pics and fill the tag.

This story repeats itself day in and day out year round in some parts of the country. The straggler dogs are eventually picked up or come wondering out eventually and tossed back down the next track found.

Well it comes time to sell some dogs. Soooooo, we decide which dogs have made most the tree's, dig up a few pics of those dogs and maybe a video clip or two and presto, a "top notch" game getter is for sale to the highest bidder.

The problem is that VERY FEW of these dogs have had ANY training, other than being shipped down a ton of tracks, and somehow actually ended up at the tree. Usually because in each box of potlickers, is usually one good dog who actually does 90% of the work.

Are the dog jockey's/big game hunters lying? Technically NO, they are not. The dog has been on as many lion or bear they say. They have the witnesses and film to prove it. They have the dog hammering on the tree, they have the dog on video baying a bear or really wooling the snot out of a shot bear or lion, and you can usually hear the guy on the video saying things like, "old blue sure hates a bear don't he!

So, somewhere out there, there is a a person who is excited about all this hound hunting stuff they have been getting into. Man it is a rush! They have been going with friends and have got the bug real bad. They decide by gosh, they are gonna build themselves a pack and get with the program!

They find an advertisement, they talk to the guy and maybe even a witness or two. Maybe even the client from Ohio or Indiana or anywhere for that matter who actually harvested an animal over this dog. He gives a glowing review on how good all of Joe Blows dogs are. Yep, he's plumb happy, because he killed a critter and that is all that matters. He knows absolutely NOTHING about what it takes to build a good hound.

So the "new guy" sends the money and gets the dog. What typically happens is this. The dog does absolutey NOTHING by itself and dang little with company other than me too. You have just bought yourself a green dog who has been ran through the mill and is now your high dollar dog.

Folks this story has repeated itself ever since there have been big game houndsmen and people wanting to be big game houndsmen.

Does this mean that all the folks selling "top notch" big game hounds are crooks? Absolutely not, but it does mean this. BUYER BEWARE! There is more going on than the unassuming consumer can possibley know.

The truth of the matter is this. MOST TOP NOTCH BIG GAME HOUNDS do not sell to the public. They are sold to someone who really knows the dog and really knows what is going on. The rest of the dogs you see are what I call "market dogs". These are the dogs that I described. These are the dogs that are raised or picked up somewhere from someone with the sole intent and purpose of sending down a bunch of tracks and selling. Nothing more, nothing less.

Some of these dogs can actually turn into top dogs, but you are going to have to put in the effort, time, sweat, to get it done.

My advice is this. DO NOT BUY A DOG FOR BIG MONEY UNLESS YOU TRUST AND KNOW THE SELLER INTIMATELY!!!!!

DO NOT SPEND BIG MONEY ON A DOG UNTIL YOU HAVE GONE WITH IT BY ITSELF ON A FEW TRACKS, and have seen with your own eyes what it can do. I am willing to bet a good chunk of money the dog will not show you a treed critter. If it does, spend the big money on it. If it don't, walk away.


Sorry so long winded, but I have been wanting to get this out for a while now LOL. Good luck and God bless.

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Wow that was a lot to read but you had some good points and advice

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Member Of The Knapp Valley Houndsmen

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dang lck this was one article well worth reading,gooood info on here,,ill tell u this much this will never ever happen again.... thanx alot

LCK I learned a valuable lesson.you would not buy a car with out driving it.so never buy a dog with out hunting it and dont go by trainers word or outfitters word seing is beliving.(dont be fooled)

Well LCK, I certainly agree with you on lots of the points you bring up about the dog jockey and training business that many of the western hounddoggers subscribe to. I ran into four young men on the mountain a couple years back and they had twenty dogs loaded. They found where a sow had crossed and dumped the box, and only had three of the older dogs finish what should have been an easy run, while most of the others were chasing each others tails and deer. That kind of training for a young dog is nothing short of a minus and the only thing that young dog will learn is bad habits.

However, I disagree that good dogs aren't made running with good dogs. Years ago I had to make a pack of dogs, and they were all pups and required alot of time to train on big game. But after that I've fed a young dog in every couple years and they learn to go get it done hunting with their pack. Maybe it works because they don't have any young dogs to run off with, but dogs like that little Rui Li female of mine has never missed a tree since she was started at six months of age. I will say, however, that is not my intention to make independent stand alone dogs by the age of two. My goals have always been to have the pack start and finish together, win lose or draw.

Last winter I had nine dogs tied up in my yard and knew full well I was feeding too many hounds. About then a guide from down in your country called me saying his best two dogs had been killed by a lion, and the younger dogs were not finishing tracks they should finish. He wanted a finished dog that would take his hounds to the tree..

I told him I didn't sell dogs and gave him some names, and then he called back in a couple weeks asking for a hound again so I took my five year old Sam dog down there to him. Now Sam is a full blooded redbone out of Ike and a half sister, and had never been run on his own. However, I knew full well that he runs his own track and had run with his old man since he was a pup.

I told that guide that I didn't know whether Sam would lead his pack anywhere, cause he'd never had his own track. However, I told him he rigged lions and bears from the box and always finished at the tree if one was made.

The outfitter ask me if I knew a certain dog jockey, to which I answered yes. A few minutes later he asked if I knew another dog jockey, to which I answered I'd heard of him. He went on about his chores and then out of the blue said: "the first guy (dog jockey) sold me a dog and it wouldn't trail crap. The other guy sold me another and it wouldn't run anything but deer.......and I buried those two dogs side by side out back."

Well, I told him not to shoot my Sam dog and if he would not rig and tree lions like I said to call me and I'd come pick him up with NO questions ask.......

A couple weeks went by and the hunter/guide called one evening. He claimed that he had a hunter in and they had gone lion hunting that day.

"We were driving down a road and one of the dogs in the back started barking so I stopped and got out to look around. There off the road was a tom lion track. You know what dog that was he asked?"

Well that never run alone Sam dog of mine had rigged and run down a tom lion on his very first field trip. The guide told me he was gonna breed that Sam dog to his red female the next time she came in heat, and that dog was out of northern California...........

It's my opinion, that if a young dog came from good dogs and learned to hunt with them it's gonna do it on it's own the first chance it has. Almost every dog I own has either treed their own lion or bear. None of these younger dogs have ever been down a scent drag or barked at a caged coon or barn cat, as they learned to bark at treed lions and bears or didn't learn......

In the end, there are lots of ways to get to where a man needs a hound. However, I'd recommend a person learns who they are dealing with and whether their word means anything or not.

I start roading my pup with the older dogs when they are big enough to keep up, they get socxalized in the backyard with the others every night I'm home, and when they can keep up they get shipped with the big dogs. I have never had one of my young dogs fail to go try, and over time learn to push their own dirt lion track........

Ike

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The Wolf Pack's Acomin!

Yes Ike I know what you are saying. You and I both know you do a lot more with your dogs than just dump em out with a few older dogs and cross your fingers and then gather them up at the tree.

I also use my older dogs to send my young dogs with. BUT, these young dogs are also taught how to handle, they are worked on trash individually, they have to show potential as potential lead dogs or they don't stay.

I, like you, have given a young dog a LOT of chances to be the one who gets to start the track. Big difference between how much time a houndsman like you spends with his dogs, versus a jockey.

A houndsman goes down the track with his dogs. I suspect maybe you might have walked down a track or two in your day while building your pack .

Yea, I walked down lots of tracks years ago and still enjoy that from time to time if the track will run slow enough to stay in the hunt. I have a place or two I hunt where I cast dogs until they strike then try to follow or cut them off--sometimes it works and sometimes it's hard to get'em back by dark.

Last fall I walked the dogs in and they struck a tom lion. I stayed just in hearing for several hours but could never get close enough to call the dogs off. Finally they popped over the mountain and I hustled back to the truck. I had been afoot with a day pack for six or seven hours and felt like hell warmed over before the day was done.

I have a few other places I hunt as well off my wheeler. On those hunts, like the walking, I cast six dogs or so and they about always have to show me the track. Like I said, I turn my hounds loose n the backyard about every night to socialize and I am their GOD, their leader and friend........

I did not mean to take the other side on this LCK, as I have the utmost respect for you and your training ability. I did, however, want to mention that there is a lazy way to bring a pup into a good pack and as we get older some of us get lazy........

lol,
ike

I think were on the same page Ike. Thanks for the input.

wally, great post. this info should be used on all types of hounds. if your planning on buying a hound, go watch it hunt 1st.

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http://www.kcshounds.com/index.php

Ike, LCK, Pretty much what your trying to tell people looking for a dog is DO NOT BUY WHAT YOU DONT TRY. I know a couple guys here in wisconsin that I trust to buy a dog from if needed but everytime is on trial basis only and they are great about it. LCK you gave a great insight as to how jockeys work people need to know what kind of salesmen are out their. Excellent thread.

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Biggs' Bear Crazy Hounds
Sammy Davis
Crow Bait
'PR' Biggs Sensational Sable
'PR' Bignell's Midnite Millie Lite
'PR' Timber Cruisin Sidney
'PR' Hoss' Moonlite Magic Bear
'PR' Tamarack Trackdown Dan

I would never expect a man to take or buy one of my hounds without hunting behind it, and if they did I'd give a guarantee on that dog. My problem has always been I grow to attached to a hound by the time they make a dog and I wouldn't want to turn one loose to a guy that didn't like and want that hound. It just isn't that easy for me to turn my feelings off for a good hound that has hunted for me for five or six years. And if I thought that person was going to be abusive to that hound, or not want it, that person wouldn't get that dog for any price..........

However, I would not take kindly to a person taking a dog on trial and running down and killing his his lion off that dog then trying to return it with a lie attached.

ike