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 Post subject: suicide
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:42 am 
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Chop Mouth
Chop Mouth

Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 422
Location: tn
I know this is a dark subject, I have had a few people I know do it. where do you think they go.



I myself think that as long as they are save, then they go to heaven. we use to talk about the bible at work. and allot of them said they believe they would go to hell. but nobody could show where it says it in the KING JAMES BIBLE. what do you all think.



I believe once save always save.



I will delete this if everybody wants me to.

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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:25 am 
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Chop Mouth
Chop Mouth

Joined: 24 Dec 2007
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Everyone has been touched by monster at one time or another. For that reason, many choose to avoid discussing it, and when the do, it isn't a fair and honest discussion because it is their relatives, friends, and loved ones involved.
If one believes "once saved, always saved", then there is no debate as long as the dead one had ever had a relationship with God. Nothing then could ever bring about a condition of "again" being lost. Paul stated, "Then ARE ye fallen from grace". The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared unto ALL men. The scriptures are 100% totally true. Are all men then going to be saved? NO! Who will be saved? The one who endures unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Judas committed suicide, only after he betraid the Lord. Betray mens to give up unto another. Judas was chosen, numbered among the 12, but he gave up that calling, that anointing, that position, office, ect. for 30 pieces of silver. The betaying of the Lord, was only done as a result of the choice already made by Judas. The love of money, choaked out the love of God. But by the "Once save always saved" doctrine, Judas was saved without question. Those who Paul spoke of that had been guilty of doing dispite ubto the Spirit of Grace, are also saved by that doctrine.
Now God is the Judge, not myself or any man. IMO there are multiple ways one can fall from Grace. First one must be "in Grace before he can "fall from" Grace. Its better for them to have never known God than to have known Him and turned away from him. No one can seperate another from the love of God, however God doesn'r enslave one against his will. God will allow one to turn away, if he so desires.
Thou shalt not kill. Kill is translated from the same word meaning "murder". No murder hath eternal life abiding in him. The question IMO then becomes, is one a murderer, only when it involves another?, or does it apply to any member of the human race? If one takes his own life, isn't he equally guilty with the one who takes the life of a child?, a mother?, Father, sister, brother? Does the scripture teach, "Thou shalt not murder, or kill another"? Or does it say "thou shalt not kill, or murder ANY human being"??
Kill, or murder being the preplanned, intentional, willful taking of the life that God has given. JMO


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:50 am 
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Chop Mouth
Chop Mouth

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we also talk about Judas, I am like you on this. I believe he went to heaven. but it make you think. thanks


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:43 pm 
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Silent Mouth
Silent Mouth

Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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I think Snooky hit a good point on the murder aspect. Murder is a sin, God says do not murder, like lying, stealing, adultry, etc.

So let me ask a food for thought question.... what if the last thing a GOD fearing, holy ghost filled, bible preaching, blood bought, enduring saint of God who has been faithful and has laid his hand to the plow and never looked back, happens to lust after a woman, right before he is hit by a bus, car, etc (not paying attention, but looking at the girl) The last thing he would have done on earth was to give in to the temptation of lust and sin. I think snooky touched on this but only God really knows the heart of the man.

Snooky what are your thoughts on this??
Or how about any???

The sin of the suicide is self centered of course and usually provoked by depression and than the murder happens, but Lust is also self centered, trying to replace what God has for us on our own.And when lust gives birth we sin with adultry.

I think a good verse for me in this is ...The Word of God is living and active and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit and of both joints and marrow and ABLE TO JUDGE THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTIONS OF OUR HEART..of course this was a rough paraphrase.

ALso.... I say to you whoever amoung you calls your brother racca ( emptyheaded) is guilty of murder in your heart...WOW...GUILTY AM I>>>


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:12 am 
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Chop Mouth
Chop Mouth

Joined: 23 Feb 2009
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So let me ask a food for thought question.... what if the last thing a GOD fearing, holy ghost filled, bible preaching, blood bought, enduring saint of God who has been faithful and has laid his hand to the plow and never looked back, happens to lust after a woman, right before he is hit by a bus, car, etc (not paying attention, but looking at the girl) The last thing he would have done on earth was to give in to the temptation of lust and sin. I think snooky touched on this but only God really knows the heart of the man

good question, I think once save always save, so there for, if a man sin before death with no time to repent, then we all will have to worry about going to hell. but I don't believe that. it does say to live as christ like as possible.

I hope we get a good thread going. thanks for all the replies.

J.C.


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:59 pm 
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Thou shalt not kill, what about murder? Any one that kill's there self is sick in
there brain, they dont understand 100% what they are doing, they just want a
way out of what they are in. It is a sickness just like heart trouble or cancer.
What about some one that smokes so much they get cancer and die. Well i think
they have committed suicide just as much as some one that put a gun to there
head. What about someone that eats junk food, or bad food so much they have
a heart attack and die, well they have killed there self.


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:00 pm 
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Chop Mouth
Chop Mouth

Joined: 23 Feb 2009
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dwoocox wrote:
What about someone that eats junk food, or bad food so much they have
a heart attack and die, well they have killed there self.


I agree with smoking and drinking, but as far as a heart attack, it is genetic, I got it on both sides of my family. and I have to take med for it. I don't think that eating right will stop it. might slow it down. good points though.


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:48 pm 
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Bawl Mouth
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Dwoocox I tend to agree with your point. About the biggest upset that has ever hit my life was a suicide that was close to me. I was ignorant of signs of suicide and had never concidered it in any way shape or form. When she died I was totally dumb founded and could hardly deal with it. The first person I turned to was my pastor and he did all he could to help, but I had to find answers for myself. Freinds and relatives came in large numbers to share stories and to comfort me. I had know idea how many freinds, even close family, had contimplated or even attempted suicide. I found that about 30% of our population is suicidal at one time or another.
Who is the typical suicide candidate? Each of us has a responsibility to listen to troubled people. People that can't seem to overcome their problems and cannot move on from them. Such people get repetitious and others often avoid them and ignore them. When they concider death as their only way out a "great peace" comes on them and they start getting their"life in order". They will give away clothing and valuable items to people they care about for instance. Its like they want to be well remembered by those people. They may do extra house keeping or other such things to prepare.
I stdied my Bible in detail looking for answers like we are now discussing. It amazed me that I couldn't simply find a verse or verses that would explain it all to me at that time and quiet my soul and help me to understand what had happened to her. But you see suicide isn't simple.... The explanation of suicide requires a great degree of study and the answer I found is as complex as the problem. Sauls death was essentially a suicide. However you must go to Genesis chappter 4 and study how God condemned Cain to understand that Saul was already condemned to hell by God well before he died.
And yes I will agree with most everyone that it is a sin if I were to take my own life this very night. But here I must bring in Dwoocoxs' point. What if I am mentally sick? Also I had a uncle in WII that went down with his plane, I am told to avoid capture and avoid the risk of giving up information under torture, and lost his life. Does God condemn such people to hell???
I have found my peace and I think I can say I am a differant person today because of what I understand now. I am quick to talk when I feel someone displaying simptoms today. It is a big part of my testimony A part that is unfortunatly often needed. I hope I have shedded a little light in this discussion.

Mel


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:01 pm 
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Bawl Mouth
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I must add a little more. People close to a suidide victem often have a great sense of guilt following a suicide and may even become suicidal to. The guilt is largely unjustified and futile, perhaps part of the healing process itself. For myself, I realized I had missed all the symptoms and the cries for help. Yes I was guilty to a point for not being more responsive to the symptoms but as I said, I didn't understand them either. It is important that people around a suicide must move on with their own lives the same as a person contemplating suicide should have help to do.
We must all learn to love our fellow man....

Mel


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Chop Mouth
Chop Mouth

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My purpose isn't to pass judgement, that is Gods job, and he is quite good at judging righteously and fairly. Neither is it my purpose to sugar-coat anything (Jer 8:11 healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly) and give one a false hope.
The example of the good man dieing in a moment of moral lapse, we must remember Calvary and the sacrifice paid. It didn't allow for deliberate dabbling in sinful living, neither did it cut one off without hope if he should sin. I have sinned since conversion, and if you haven't, just live a few day in this world and you could fine out you are just "flesh". Thank God for "the Advocate". If ye sin, the advocate in Heaven, our High Priest in the True Tabernacle which God hath pitch and not man, will wash that most recent sin clean in the blood of The Lamb of God, IF we approach him and ask forgiveness of him. He is just and faithful to forgive us of our sins. Who is to determine whether he simply prayed in a simi-conscience state, verbally or silence and asked forgiveness of the "advocate"?
Is there a difference in suicide and getting ran over by a truck? To him that "knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin". IMO sin becomes exceeding sinful, only with knowledge, (sins of ignorance ??).
When one has done dispite to the Spirit of Grace, there remaineth NO sacrifice for sin. The question is, Has one done "dispite" which leads to the act? If so, IMO there will be no remission.
Many unknowns that would require an answer before an accurate answer can be given.


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:43 am 
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Silent Mouth
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Guys, I agree wiht both of you and Snooky your thoughts as very similair as mine. Years ago, when my wife and I were first married we met a young couple that had same interest as ours, dogs, hunting, fishing, horses, etc. We became friends and found out she was a achoholic. She had it bad, would go weeks ok and then go 3 days away from home drinking. We started a bible study with them and this girl had tons of head knowledge. They seemed to be slowing starting to share and open more and more, than something happened. We are not sure what but they started to not want to hang out with us, hunt, fish, etc. Soon we found ourselves not in the study anymore. We would see them from time to time and visit but then learned they divorced. 6 months later she hung herself. So Like you we have seen it as well. I agree with you snooky on all matters concerning this. I really can not judge wether or not she truly had been converted in her heart. As her sin overwhelmed her. She had told us she had asked Christ to be her Lord and Saviour years before. Only God knows on this one. I myself think of the Vine and the branches in John. (the branches bearing fruit & being pruned by the vinedresser) also the branches yeilding no fruit. BUT as I think of a young fruit tree here, it is many years (our time) before we see fruit. The young tree grows and grows, is taking care of, watered, fertilized, pruned, weathers MANY storms, etc. than the fruit.

I do really appreciate your guys softness in this as I am sure there are those out there that need us to extend grace to them in this matter.

Truth and firmness, surronded by love and grace...


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:55 am 
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Silent Mouth
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More thoughts...as I walked outside, (zero here) no branches are bearing fruit. They look dead, lifeless, BUT they are alive, just going thru a winter time in their life on earth. BUT they are still part of the tree (vine) and the vinedresser (me) will continue to water and fertilize them, continue to prune them, so they keep growing and bear MORE and MUCH fruit. The TREE supplies the nutriates to the branches.

(We are all branches, Jesus is the Vine)

Some branches die due to disease and damage from animals and some from too long of winter exposure.

It will be neat when we, gentleman, all get to heaven, and I believe the mystery of so many things will be revealed to us...I long for that day....


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Chop Mouth
Chop Mouth

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thanks guys for sharing your stories, I will tell this one, one of my wife's friend that she grew up with, was in a car with her boyfriend, and 2 little girls, both under 4 years of age. well the parent was fighting again, I think he was on drugs, don't know never met them. but they were into it, and as they were going home, he stop the car on the railroad tracks, and was hit by a train, it killed him and her, but the two girls walk away with only scratches, thanks GOD for that. but the oldest girl told her grandma, that after the accident she saw her mom standing outside the window crying looking in on them. but she was dead in the front seat. they said it was a accident, but who knows.



A guy down the road who I talk to little here and there, him and his wife was arguing, and she left. so he said if she dint come back he would kill himself, and he did with a gun to his head. that is two I know or my wife knows. we know of some more I might tell later.



I met a guy once at church who earlier in his life try to shoot himself with a shotgun through the face, and he lived, he tells his stories allot at church. he got saved after he did it.



thanks again for your all post, and GOD bless you all.


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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Loose Mouth
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I've been reading this one and see some good thoughts. No simple answers for the question. We have had to wrestle with it in our church also. A guy with a sweet wife and two kids chose this a couple of summers ago. We all wish he had waited for God to bring the answer to his prayer for being lifted up but he must have gotten tired of waiting. Our enemy wants our minds to get clouded up by grief and depression so we stop believing that God hears our prayers. Not much different than what he was telling Eve in the garden. God had told them not to eat of that tree or they would surely die but she listened to a lie and some hundreds of years later she and Adam did die. Was that a suicide? A slow one? God's grace once accepted covers our past, present and future sins..that I believe. I also agree when Paul wrote, "Shall we sin that grace may abound? By no means."

When folks feel so low that being dead looks better than living one more day or hour I think that you could say they are not in their clear mind. As far as soldiers in combat taking risks or choosing to die in action for a higher cause like covering a grenade with their body to keep their buddies from harm you all understand that those situations are not all the same. Some of those guys are doing that as an act of grace for their comrades and others have been worn down by combat and want to be free from circumstances in combat and back home. There's so much work for military chaplains who love the Lord to encourage our troops. Pray for those guys.

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 Post subject: Re: suicide
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Silent Mouth
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Willseeya later... I REALLY like your thoughts on Eve. Very well said... You are right as you explain this.. Very true...God tells ALL OF US the penalty for sin is DEATH. Both physical and if "unregenerated" spiritual death. Great post in my opinion.....


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