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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:39 pm 
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Tight Mouth
Tight Mouth

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
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I don't know how many years I have fought flea infestation, or the amount of money involved. But know more I have found the miricle drug that is cheap. If you are interested go to wal-mart buy a bottle of tree&shrub insecticde make by Bayer comes in a blue bottom. Pour 12-24 cc's down there back wait a couple days and they are gone!!!! This stuff is wonderful.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Chop Mouth
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Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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Location: Oregon
There is a lot of info on this on the UKC site.. I finally bit the bullet and tried it myself. I was a skeptic. Seems to be working great. I normally don't have a flea problem but hunted with some dogs that do.. So I won't put this on my dogs every month.. But it sure works... I use 15ml for dogs 40-65lbs

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:19 am 
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Loose Mouth
Loose Mouth

Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Location: NJ
If it is the Advanced 12 Month Tree & Shrub Insect Control Super Concentrate do not put it on your dog. This is the MSDS info on it. It states you should not let it contact skin and that it may have target organ effects. http://www.bayeradvancedgarden.com/medi ... A_MSDS.pdf

If it is the Advanced Garden Tree & Shrub concentrate (not 12-month) if you look toward the bottom of the MSDS it indicates that low dosage tests on dogs didn't affect them much as far as chronic toxicity but when the dosage was increased (as in pouring it down their backs) the dogs showed decreased food consumption (loss of appetite), increased liver weight, and elevated serum chemistries. There is more but it is a 2 page MSDS and I haven't got the hang of how to copy/paste with pdf files so you can read up on it http://www.bayeradvancedgarden.com/medi ... _label.pdf

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:29 am 
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Tight Mouth
Tight Mouth

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
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I have been using about 12cc's down there back. And yes it is the super concentate b/c the fleas are super concentrated. They don't make anything for fleas that even is comparable!!! If used correctly this is called the mircle drug for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Loose Mouth
Loose Mouth

Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Location: NJ
Not to be rude but if used correctly you wouldn't be putting it on your dog. It is dangerous to your dog and could kill it in the long run.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:18 am 
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Tight Mouth
Tight Mouth

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
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It is not dangerous to pets. The only way is if they where to eat it. It is actully the same chemicals that are used in advantage and admire except this is diluted so you have to up the dosage. I have even heard people using it on cats. I use it on 10 dogs for about a year now and they have looked the best since I have been raising hounds 25yrs worth. I call it the wonder drug. And it is cheap $18 and treat up to 60 dogs you can beat that I don't care what you say. I have worked with a vet and he was astonished!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:06 pm 
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It says right on the msds:

1: routes of exposure: inhalation, eye contact, SKIN CONTACT, ingestion
2: avoid contact with skin and clothing
3: If it comes in contact with skin : wash off immediately for 15 minutes, take off contaminated clothes and shoes immediately, call a physician or poison control center immediately
4: keep away from food drink and animal feeding stuffs (anyones dog ever lick themselves?)
5: do not allow children or pets into the trated area until its dried
6: CHRONIC TOXICITY: In chronic dietary studies in rats and DOGS exposed to imidacloprid, the target organs were the thyroid and/or liver.
7: REPRODUCTION: offspring exhibited reduced body weight at the high dose and in conjunction with maternal toxicity.



There is more just google it. I didn't read anywhere that its safe as a topical medicine for dogs. Everything on the MSDS indicates that its not. If bayer thought it was safe for pets then they'd market it as such. This stuff is poison and and people put this on their dogs???????????? Makes sense to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:52 am 
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Loose Mouth
Loose Mouth

Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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Location: Texas
I have heard a couple of people using it. One has 40 dogs in his kennel. He uses it and they still eat fine and are as healthy as always but without fleas.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:31 am 
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jcoonhound wrote:
I have heard a couple of people using it. One has 40 dogs in his kennel. He uses it and they still eat fine and are as healthy as always but without fleas.



Ok, so its fine for the short term. What about 7 years down the road?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:47 pm 
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Tight Mouth
Tight Mouth

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
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Fine don't use it. Your problem not mine.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:59 am 
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Silent Mouth
Silent Mouth

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
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In response to the statements that the Bayer product is deadly to dogs, I would suggest that any pesticide is deadly if used improperly. According to what I can find, the Shrub product appears to be very similar to the Advantage product with perhaps a surfactant added to the Shrub poduct to enhance absorption into the ground, the surfactant lowers surface tension of the mixture. On the surface nothing stands out as toxic to dogs.
The LD and LC 50 makes it appear relatively nontoxic. Abnormalities were only seen after extended use of extremely high doses that would not be consistent with our use.
Since the Shrub product is not labeled for canine use Bayer must, to cover itself, strongly caution against its unlabeled use due to liabilities and the violation of Federal Law.

The Oral Lethal Dose for a rat of the SHRUB product is more than 4870 mg/kg.

The Oral Lethal Dose for table salt is 3000 mg/kg.

So comparatively, I would think the Schrub product is safe as we use it ,far below the levels listed above.
Only at extremely high long term doses did the loss of appetite , and other subtle changes occur.
These cautions would most likely be true even for the Advantage product.
My point is, read completely before judging. This is no guarantee of safety to canines I just thought the facts were interesting as opposed to the spreading of ideas not consistent with the printed documentation.
Just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation
GregH


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:48 pm 
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Tight Mouth
Tight Mouth

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
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Thank you that is the same information that I have found. It is like any other thing if not used properly. Some people I think like buying overpriced products from the VET. Not me always looking for a better cheaper route. I can say that I have 10 hounds that years before have had horriable flea infestations. I would spend all weekend washing dogs, etc. Those days are over "that is what sold me, and they look better than ever"
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Loose Mouth
Loose Mouth

Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Location: NJ
They can suffer problems that are not immediately lethal like organ damage - that is not going to be reflected by the LD information given. If the company has specifically said it is not to be used other than directed on the label and has indicated problems in dogs exposed to it then you take on all the responsibility for the health problems your dog develops. If your dog dies or suffers organ failure the company cannot be sued because you put the stuff on your dog. I found another info page about it- http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/imidacloprid.pdf -that indicates it is a major ingredient in Advantage but even Advantage's label indicates that there is moderate toxicity. If you are going to use it I think the safest way is to figure out the actual amount of it in the correct size tube of Advantage for your dog and figure out the percentage of Imidacloprid in the Tree & Shrub insecticide per cc so you know how much to put on the dog without overdosing. I have used Advantage and it did work very well. Bayer indicates Advantage has 100g/L but I don't know how small those little tubes are.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:32 am 
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Silent Mouth
Silent Mouth

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
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Relative dosages are easy to figure. The Advantage product is 6 times the strength of the Shrub product. So basically use 6 times the Advantage. Although most folks get by with half the indicated amount. The organ damage thing keeps coming up. Only at extremely high levels was that observed. In no way would be dose our animals with that level every day. The topical solution is not systemic, it rides the oil gland system. Of course some is absorbed and the dog ingests some when it licks itself. The dermal tox is also low as was shown by the rabbit and rat tests. Remember these tests were at the max levels. BUT I CANNOT guarantee its safety. I am using it but am being cautious. Use it at your own risk but it is so good I cannot ignore it. Just speaking for myself. If you are not comfortable using it by all means don't.
Greg Harrison


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 Post subject: no fleas yet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:39 am 
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Loose Mouth
Loose Mouth

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1102
Location: MN
We are watching for fleas but no sign yet. I think I'll get a bottle of the Bayer juice to have on hand or in case it gets pulled off the market. Last summer we used Biospot as a preventative and I decided that it was to risky. Our dog had areas on her back and sides that lost hair and looked scorched. The redness went away but the hair that grew back in does not lay the same as the rest of hers. The vet said it could have been the Biospot since it didn't look like anything such as mange or hotspots. We don't have the same level of flea problems that folks in the south do with the longer summer and more heat.

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