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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:49 pm 
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I put an article on the Coondawgs home page that helps explain some of it. It's under the articles heading. If that doesn't help let me know and I can go into more detail. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:43 pm 
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Silent Mouth
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LCK, the article that you wrote was very helpful. thanks for the direction.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:22 pm 
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Not much to report this week. Clyde and Smoke have been takin it easy due to work etc. I don't mind layin them up for a while as it seems to help sometimes more than it hurts. I hope to get them out Sunday for a cat hunt.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:30 pm 
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you going to put them on bear as well? on bobcats do the young dogs seem to have any ill affects from the frustrating races bobcats can give them at times? also a question about bear races. something i've seen lately and according to a local bear hunter is fairly common, the dogs ran the bear track got to the bear on the ground and then i guess got scared and ran the back track to where they started. he said it's common among young dogs that haven't been on many bear. i'm planning on breaking 'em off bear but was just wondering.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:37 am 
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I look for signs of frustration on the cat races. I don't really expect them to push many tough tracks through given their age and complete lack of experience but I DO expect enough desire and determination to give it a good college try. I also look for them to learn from each time out and push a little harder each time. If the pups show good desire I am good to go with them. If they show that they quit too easy I don't keep them in the cat string very long. Very few dogs make top cat dogs. All you can hope for is that they try hard and improve each time out. I agree with your bear hunting friend. Most dogs will run a bear track. Very few will stay with a bear if the bear puts up much resistance on the ground. I will expose these pups to bear in the Spring. Not so much to make bear dogs out of them, but more to asses their ability and drive on bear. Some make it and some don't. I like to at least give them a good chance. To me, messing with young dogs is a series of tests and assesments in area's of ability. Drive, use of nose, problem solving, grit on game, locating and treeing ability, homing instinct, physical endurance and characteristics etc. At this stage in their training it is all about getting the chance to show me what they have and not so much about catching game each time out. I'm not against catching game but I think you can learn a great deal about what is inside a dog if you can expose them to as much as possible at this age etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Smoke:
I have mentioned earlier how Smoke has had issues with being growly around other dogs. I have worked extensively with this dog in order to get him to stop this behavior. Initially, there was some progress. After laying him up for just over a week it was time to get on with his training. Now this aggressive behavior is something I am extremely sensative to and to be honest not very optomistic about in the first place. I know from several past experiences some dogs like this just are never trustworthy around other dogs. To make a long story short, all of the previous training done with Smoke in this area did not work. In fact after the lay up he was worse than before. Smoke is no longer in this training program.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:23 am 
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Clyde:

Clyde, unlike his littermate Smoke is doing well. He has never even offerd to show the slightest interest in being tough around other dogs and is responding to training with a good deal of enthusiasm. He is a friendly fellow to say the least. He is improving in the field. His time spent lingering around my feet has reduced a great deal whle his interest in hunting out and staying out is increasing. Clyde managed to strike and open on a few tracks last night and worked very hard to get them moving. It is encouraging to see him turn on each trip out. We treed 4 coon last night and he managed to tree a little with some encouragement and helped pull a little hair. Clydes progress is slow but hopefull. He has not done a drag or ever seen a caged coon. Everything to date has been learned in the field. At this point I think it is time to perhaps do a few drags for him and end them with him wanting more. If he shows well it will be his turn to go out alone and work on some tracks. The dog on the left of the pic below is Clyde.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:17 pm 
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Loose Mouth
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Too bad about Smoke. Some dogs are simpy agressive with others and can't work well with others.
Great news about Clyde! Glad to see the pix! Keep up the awesome work and chronicling, Heather


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:36 pm 
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you posted some pics on the blue site and my wife loooooved clyde. i'm glad he's doing well. as far as the other, i despise an ill dog. i think more often than not the aggression is fear based. "do unto others before they do unto you". hope to see clyde doing it in style.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:38 am 
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Did a little drag with Clyde yesterday. I used a fresh coon. I first hid it in some brush about 50 yards off the roadway and turned him loose down the road. The first pass he flew right past it. On the return trip, he hooked into it and air scented all the way in. He showed mild interest but soon took off searching the ground for some kind of trail. I leashed him up and tied him off about 25 yards away where he could not see where the coon was. I then dragged it about 200 yards in a fairly easy line into some tree's where I rubbed it up one side of the tree real good and then hoisted it up and out of sight and tied it off with a long rope. Clyde was barking and causing a pretty good fuss while I walked out of sight (using a chain leash is a good idea so the pups won't chew them in half and come in before your ready) I walked out and back to Clyde a different way than I walked in and took my time. When I got to Clyde he was amped up and ready to be cut loose. I turned him loose and he ran right back to where the coon had been. He ran around like a wild man for about 30 seconds and then came back to me. This is fairly normal. I just ignored him and let him get bored with me. In a few moments he went back to looking for a trail. He finally got on the drag scent and took off with it. He ran it directly in to the tree's and of course made a loss. He would run the back trail a little and follow it back to the tree's, this went on for a few minutes. His interest did not seem to lessen so I let him work on it. He did finally slow down and work the trail right to the tree. I watched as he slowly smelled up and down the tree and then run the trail back a ways then back to the tree. To me this is a critical time in training with drags. If the pup loses interest and gives up you have lost a good opportunity. I had the rope tied off in such a way that I could sneak in behnd him and lower or raise the coon without him realizing I was even there. As he was smelling up the tree I SLOWLY lowerd the coon down to him. He bumped into it with his nose and it startled him just a little. I immediatey hoisted it back up and out of sight. This turned his crank pretty good. He got on the tree and did everything he could to get up the tree trunk as high as he could ( I think it is very important to use a tree that cannot be climbed for this kind of training because most young dogs will try to climb at this point if able) I watched as his frustration grew. He would start to come off the tree so I would lower the coon just enough to tease him back on the tree. He started to whine just a little at this point. Every time he would vocalize I would lower the coon to just being out of his reach. When he got quiet and started to want to climb I would hoist it up and out of sight. This happens fast and pretty soon he started barking out of frustration. Once he started barking good I lowerd the coon so he could just get his teeth on it and then I would pull it back up the tree. He seemed to learn pretty quick that barking gave him the coon, as soon as it started going up and away he would bark and quit trying to climb or come off the tree. As soon as this happend I dropped the coon out to him. He grabbed hold and was really taking his frustration out on it. I loved him up real good and played a little tug with him. This only lasted about 15 seconds and I pulled him off and started walking out with him. He pulled and barked and threw a pretty good fit while being pulled away from his tree and coon. This is a good thing. Now is not the time for any obediance commands or correction. I let him fight me all the way back to the truck and put him in the box where I fed him a can of dog food. Clyde will be laid up for about three days with very little interaction or training.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:42 am 
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This is a really good idea! They are both beautiful dogs! My little girl has a tendency to growl in the box so Im curious about how this will pan out.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:34 am 
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LCK, you are making me want to look for a pup to work with!! I REALLY keyed in on the part about the pup coming back to you and you let him get bored with you ignoring him and go hunting on his own.I think most people that try to train dogs don't have the patience or temperament to do so.I have a good friend that SAYS he is trying to train a dog-she's coming on 3 years old and after 2 seasons of hunting her with my old dog all she can do is go with my dog and fight a shot out coon.I don't think it's the dog's fault, though, because my friends' idea of training is to simply turn her loose with my dog and punish her when she doesn't do exactly as he wants.Other than feeding her, he has NO interaction with the dog whatsoever,and can't figure out why he doesn't have a barn- burner yet.He's also pretty hard headed when it comes to taking advice.Until it interferes with my dog's hunting or I get a pup of my own to work with, I'm gonna let him pay his dues.

Dixiebelle, I've seen alot of dogs that get growly when another dog is put in the box with them,Usually a "shut up" will stop it, and it VERY seldom actually leads to a fight, but if a dog of mine does it, I pull him out of the box immediately and change his mind about it-I also expect the same out of someone I'm hunting with if their dog does it to mine.He needs to know that I am the lead dog in this pack, it's MY box,and he's riding because I allow him to.I think any agressive behavior,no matter how small it seems, needs to be dealt with immediately-anything you let a dog get away with WILL escalate sooner or later.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:26 am 
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A lot of being growly in the box can be worked through. I have had several dogs get over it with the type of training Coleman mentions. It was different with Smoke. He was not only growly in the box but growly out of the box as well. I am very confident he was one of those dogs who was going to get in the first bluff. He was being aggressive out of fear. To me this is a very dangerous situation for other dogs and people. A dog who shows aggression out of fear will more often than not become a fear biter. If they are crowded or put in a situation they are not comfortable in they resort to aggression to escape. They learn this behavior at a very early age. If they show aggression, everything backs off and they get back in their comfort zone, so to speak. This behavior escalates and more often than not will lead to fear biting. I have had many dogs who were hung up or in pain attack me while trying to help them out. This is fear biting. Smoke did show improvement initially but after a lay up his behavior increased several times worse than before. He did not respond to corrections. Now even if Smoke was some kind of wonder pup who could run and tree and hold pressure and all of that good stuff, the fact remains that he would always be afraid and never could be trusted. An aggressive dog is like the plague. The aggression spreads through the pack like wild fire. Exposing otherwise calm, sensible, well adjusted hounds to a dog of this nature is kind of like sending your children to a summer camp full of bully's so they can be picked on, on a daily basis. The kids will do one of two things in a situation like that. They will either become a bully themselves in order to protect themselves or shut down and withdraw from any activity that exposes them to the source of aggression. Either option is not acceptable. It is the same with a pack of hounds who are expected to work together, fight game together, ride in close quarters together and otherwise be a productive member of a team. Now having come to the conclusion that Smoke was very definately being aggressive out of fear my options were very limited. Could I have poured a ton of time and intense behavior modification training into this dog? Could I have put him in a more intense socialization program? Could I have done any number of things to work on this issue with Smoke? Yes I could have. Would it have worked? My experience and more importantly the experience of others whom I trust and respect suggest very strongly that it would not have come to a good end. I could of had him castarated and put him in the hands of someone who only hunts one hound. This can be a tempting option until you think it through. Most folks know that fortunes and situations change with us who run hounds. Perhaps Smoke did turn out to be a great hound and his new master and him did just fine together. Then something unforseen happens and this new owner gets an offer he can't refuse on Smoke. Or he has to give up hunting or keeping a hound for any number of legitimate reasons. Now he has been peddled to another owner who has just took on a ticking bomb. The bottom line is a dog with these issues is in my experience and opinion is better off being put down in a humane manner. It is not a popular issue and is not a pleasant outcome. But I firmly hold it is the best most responsible option in the long run.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:44 am 
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You defianltely made the correct decision. Sometimes we deal with other peoples problems in Rescue... life would be safer for all if they never made it that far. Our son Dylan wears some scars from this.... If a fear biter is presented with fearful human the results can lead to disaster. Even a small coonhound can inflict an amazing amount of damage. This form of agression makes euthanasia the ONLY choice.
Keep up your great work, Heather


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:26 pm 
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Well every once in a while opportunity knocks! I took the dogs for a cat hunting trip and had a pretty good day of getting some exercise and doing some good trash breaking work. I loaded Clyde along with some other pups. Didn't get any cats going but it was a good day anyways. On the way out of the canyon a young coon crossed in front of me about 100 yards up. I just couldn't resist. I put Clyde and a young Leapard Cur out and let em run down the road. They both had a pretty good head of steam up by the time they ran through where the coon had crossed. Ole Clyde about did a back flip when he ran through the scent. By the time he got turned around he was in full cry and hot on the snow track. The Cur was right behind him. I was just getting my leash over my shoulder when I heard Clyde catch the coon on the ground. By the time I got to them they had it bayed up right on the river bank. Now this turned real dangerous real fast as the river was just barely frozen over and certainly would not hold a dogs weight. The fight was getting pretty heated and the coon was right at the rivers edge. I could actually hear the ice cracking under his weight. I was able to get the pups leashed up and held em back long enough to get a couple of pics. I could tell the coon did not want to cross the ice any more than I wanted the dogs to try. I was in a bind because now I had two very fired up pups pulling for all they are worth, I am on a very steep river bank on fresh slick snow and had a coon about 4 inches in front of the dogs with nowhere to go! I couldn't for the life of me crawl back up the bank! It was getting dark and I was pretty much stuck with my hands plenty full! I just decided to love em up the best I could and catch my breath. Fortunately about this time the coon decided he had got to know us about as good as he wanted to and ventured out on the ice. He crossed ok and headed for parts unknown. Now things really got crazy. Clyde is a big ole brute at about 45 to 50 pounds and did not agree with me holding him back as his first wild coon he had caught fare and square ran off across the river! Bitty the Cur was doing her fare share of helping Clyde pull me into the river. After about 20 minutes of this I finally got them settled down enough to get them back up the bank. I had to pull them kicking and screaming back to the truck and finally got em put up. Ole Clyde bellowed and booo hoood all the way back to town LOL. I have always maintaned it is best to pull a young dog off wanting more and I guess this qualified. :D Here's a few pics, sorry they are not real centerd but I kind of had my hands full!

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