As soon as the pup is big enough to wear a tracking collar I start putting one on them. They get used to them pretty quick and learn to associate them with being out and having fun. The same goes with the e-collars as well. They will have worn an e-collar and tracking collar for months before they are ever even turned on.

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Stinger and I had a pretty good session yesterday. I took her out and worked her through some pretty difficult country. Ledge rocks, deep washes etc. She was wearing an e-collar and learned to handle a good bit. I spent about ten minutes with her on lead and finally got her to give to the leash a bit. I have been using a ridding quirt to lightly slap her back into the heel position when she gets to pulling etc. She certainly seems to respond to training a lot better after having had a good long walk to burn off some of that high energy.

what are some of the basic things that you are training her to do at this stage? i know you are teaching her to heal and how to lead but what else? do you work on fundamentals like sit, stay, speak etc. and how often do you do that and when you do do you use treat rewards or do you just pet her and say good dog.

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Boozer...

Well LCK, my blue tick pup is 32 weeks old this week. I've been taking him out for a few hours every week or so just to let him run loose in the woods and play. His wt is around 40 to 45lbs right now and ( LOL ) really doesn't look like an 8 month old pup. He was born on Jun 28th 2006. Anyways, he does pretty good on a lead. I haven't takin' him out to hunt. I have takin' him out at night once or twice with a lead on. He has seen one caged coon a month ago and like everyone else says about there pups, he went balistic over it, even by himself. Anyway, I don't want to show him another coon. I want to start takin' him out and work with him. I don't have a shock collar (want one but don't have the money for that) to aid in my training. What do you suggest LCK? I have an 8 year redbone but I don't want to run my BT with him b/c of his habits. I need your help. LOL, thanks LCK.


Billy

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"Huntin and fishin ain't a pasttime, its a way of life!"

It can be kind of hard to put into words as what it is we are specifically training for right now. I think the best way to explain it is this way. I am giving her the chance to experience all of the trappings that surround actual hunting without the added pressure of hunting if that makes sense? She is loading and going with the other hounds in the box. Learning to stand still with the box door open and not chargin the gate. Learning to stand still on the tailgate for colloring. Learning to shut up in the box when other dogs have been let out. Learning that some scents cause much discomfort. Learning to enjoy running, but also learning to understand that I am in charge and it does pay to keep a small part of her attention on me most of the time. Learning that it is a big wonderfull and exciting world to explore. Learning NOT to pull when on lead. Learning NOT to run away when I come calling. Just basically gaining a good foundation of experience prior to being expected to produce game. That will come soon enough and to be completely honest if it is in her it will not take any training for her to do well, it should just come out. The thing that I concern myself the most with young hounds is the window dressing of hunting and handling. I think it makes the difference between a pleasurable dog and a dog which only brings headaches and frustration. Once a young dog has learned the perameters of how to behave it becomes much more comfortable in it's own skin and much more confident. I do use treats sometimes and praise. It all depends on the specific circumstance. Lets give a for instance. Say that we have a young dog who is just shy around the box. Does not like loading or unloading. This is when treats and food reward would come into play. The dog would be "trained" to associate the box as a good place where good things happen. Food reward can be very helpfull to achieve this. I use praise in circumstances such as this. The dog is pulling hard on lead. It gets a swat with the quirt along with a leash jerk causing the prongs to tighten up along with a sharp HEEL command. The dog is corrected and gets in the right position. I then immediately pet and praise the dog. Dogs are the absolute master at figuring out profit and loss. It does not take long for them to stay in the "profit" zone ( heel position) and avoid the loss position ( pulling). All these things are now becoming a part of Stingers young life. She is growing up fast and maturing physically as well as mentally with positive stimulation aiding in the process. In due time she will be introduced to game. It is always my hope that with having built a solid foundation prior to this introduction all she will have to do is focus on the game at hand and not all the stuff that surrounds hunting. It will have already been learned and will not add to the confusion.

Reloader, I think I would read the post above this one and see if you have prepared the dog for hunting as I explained. Once that has been done, I would start walking the youngster into area's where there is an above average chance of crossing a good hot coon track. Remember this. ALWAYS pull the young dog off wanting more and put it up for a while. If it gets bogged down on a track, catch it up before it learns to quit. If it tree's a coon, pull it off the tree at it's peak. Don't let it wear down and slack off on it's own. If you catch it being wrong, give it a good swift correction and put it up, don't re cast hoping for a chance to redeem itself. But most of all enjoy every second your out. Your both learning and to me that is what it is all about. Keep me posted.

thanks LCK, I'll keep you posted.

LCK,
That makes alot of sense. how far along do you think she is in terms of the basics like we just talked about? how do you know when she has got it down and is ready for the next step. Is there a good way of getting her to learn to bark when you want and not also when you want without teaching her that barking is bad? How many hours a day would you say you work with her on average? Thanks for doing this cause its helping alot. I just got that book you told me to get. walk with wick.
thanks,
jmh

I have noticed that she is starting to settle down a good bit this last two weeks. She is getting accustomed to the routine of going out and being handled. It is hard to put a time frame on it. All dogs are different. I suspect this little rascal will be ready for some woods time at night come late May or early June. I have been trying to work her three days a week with a good lay up between sessions or outings. I firmly believe that a good layup after each session is as important if not maybe a little more important than the actual training session. It has to do with how dogs process experiences. The lessons just stick better if the dog is allowed to lay up and "think" about it for a couple of days. You have to correct the dog for nuisance barking while it is in the act of barking. The command SHUT UP should be heard just prior to the dog receiving the correction. You will not mess up a dogs hunting mouth by teaching it to shut up while not hunting. It is just teaching it good manners. If done properly they learn pretty quick and settle down. I absolutely detest a box full of barking hounds when I am trying to hear a couple out in the woods trying to work up a track. Silence in the box is a must.

LCK, this is a great project and i have a question about the barking problem I hav a 12 week old Walker Female and i was wondering if it was to early to put a bark collar on her. i have had her for about 2 weeks and she barks at night and during the day unless i am playing with her. i don't want her to not bark on the traill but just not in the kennels and in the box.
Also, what should be the first step in my training because Clyde and Smoke were 1 year old and she is 12 weeks old so what should be my first step in the training process.

Thanks,
Clinton

At this age I might hold off on the bark collar for a while. You will accomplish more with one on one shut up training. When the pup is barking give it a light but suprising swat proceeded with SHUT UP or whatever command you want. The ridding crop or quirt come in very handy for this training. A ball cap does a good job also. This will startle the pup and it will shut up and pay attention to what you are going to do next. When it is being quiet praise and pet it. Walk away or ignore the pup and it will more than likely bark again. Repeat the correction. It takes a good bit of repetition for the pup to associate the behavior, in this case barking, with the correction. In time it will begin to associate the command with the correction and learn to shut up to avoid the correction. Always pet and praise for being calm and quiet and correct for nuisance barking. Some learn quicker than others but if you stick with it, it will pay of in the long run. I generally only have to use bark collars when we are gone to insure a nice quiet neighborhood. The dogs learn pretty quick that it is ok to raise heck when we are gone. The bark collars fix this little problem right pronto. Bark collars are not intended for long term use. They, like e-collars, will create serious sores on the neck if worn too long.

lck
how is stinger doing? any new updates? how is the progress doing. i havent seen any new posts latley and i was wondering how it is going.
jmhull

Thank you for the lesson on bark collars and i was reading the post when i rembered another question i have and that is when do is stat the training process ( dragging a coon on the ground letting her see one and also when to let it go and let her chase one and tree it.

Thanks,
Clinton

Well it all just kind of depends. Drags and caged coon are kind of a sore spot with me. Not that they are a bad thing, but they can and often times do more harm than good. The first thing we as trainers and handlers of hounds should ask ourselves is this...... What am I trying to accomplish by doing a drag or showing a dog a caged coon? Drags and caged coon do have their place in hound training. The down side to this is that they are FUN and entertaining for us to do and it is VERY easy to over do them to the point that we are actually seriously setting the dog back instead of helping it over a rough spot. I think drags are ok for real young puppy's. It should just be a quick game of hide and seek for them. It helps them learn how to use their noses and kind of gets them used to the coon scent. The problems come when we start hanging the hide up for the puppy's to tree on. They can see the drag and are learning to sight tree and not scent tree. It only takes one or two times of this and a pup can be permanently imprinted on using it's eyes instead of it's nose to locate and tree. Caged coon......... Caged coon have a place as well but can also be very counter productive when it comes to hound training. How pups, young hounds or grown hounds for that matter act around a caged coon really has absoloutely no bearing on how that particular dog will be as a hunter and producer of game. Caged coon tend to be WAY over rated and WAY WAY over used. It has been my personal experience that caged coon, drags and starting pups too early are the three easiest ways to ruin otherwise decent prospects. The reason for this is because we as humans tend to over do them or do them for the wrong reasons because they entertaine us and have little or nothing to do with serious training. Most folks get a new pup or pups and are just dying to see what the pup will do. So we lay some drags and let em tree til the cows come home by sight, or we let the pup fire it up on a caged coon over and over and over again. This makes us as humans feel good about the pup and proud of how "gritty" and how good this little devil is already so we dump em in the woods and run em with older faster dogs and before we know it we have a young hound with more problems than a Goldfish at a Cat convention. The following is kind of a guide to how I use drags and caged coon at certain times in the training process. Please keep in mind that all dogs are different (even littermates) and you must design a program specifically suited for the individual dog at different times of it's developement. But in general terms here goes.

DRAGS.
Using whatever scent you chose, I prefer using freshly killed coon that have not been skinned. Road kill are best in my opinion, no sense letting them go to waste and your not just killing coon for training purposes. I try to keep several in my wifes freezer. Drives the Mother in Law crazy and I always have some on hand when needed so I get a double bonus!
I like to tease real young puppy's with the drag at first to get them a bit curious and fired up. I then make a short drag out of sight of the pup or pups and hide it real good in some brush. I let the pup or pups go and watch them. They usually find the drag real quick, when they do I get to it and play a little tug of war and just pretty much have a party with the puppy and then I immediately take it away from them and put them up while they are at the very peak of excitement. It kind of leaves them wondering what the heck just happened, and they are left to think quietly about this for the rest of the day and night. This entire session will only last at a maximum, 6 to 7 minutes tops, then it is over. As the pup or pups grow older the length and difficulty of the drag increases but the time spent tugging or playing with the drag is ALWAYS only a few short seconds and then they are put up wanting more. This is done in the yard. Once the dogs are making short work of finding the drags in the yard it is time to start loading them in the box for short trips to the park or a field somewhere. I then lay a drag and let them out to find it in a new environement. It is fun to find new and different places to take the pup or puppy's " hunting". I also start putting e-collars on the pups at this time. I do not turn them on but they get used to wearing them. The drags get longer and more difficult but the one thing that never changes is the pups do not spend too much time with it after they have found it and they NEVER sight tree it at this stage. They can play tug of war, drag it around etc. but I take it away and put them back in the box and take them home almost immediately after they have found it. After some time you will begin to see some good things happening. The pups will learn to load up eagerly. They will hit the ground hunting with their noses. They will get used to crossing shallow water, going through fences, being in strange places, learning not to be possesive around game. A lot of young pups will try to growl the other pups off of the drag. This is when they get a DANG GOOD SPANKING and soon learn to share peacefully. You are now accomplishing several hunt training goals by using a drag. This is pre training and pays HUGE dividends in the future. This is also when I tend to hide the drag up above the pups head in heavy brush or in the crook of a tree so they start to learn to check tree's and dense brush and they start to associate scent going up. I DO NOT place it overhead where they can see it, only smell it.

CAGED COON.
At around 7 to 10 months of age I like to use caged coon. I should say released caged coon. Catch a coon in a live trap. Drag the cage to a good spot. Pour some water on it and leave it for a good ten minutes. Get the youngster or youngsters for that matter and hunt them across and down wind of the drag area. Let them find the cage. Get to them immediately and only spend a few seconds petting and reassuring them that everything is ok. Some youngsters are a bit cautious and seemingly timid around this new found critter. Leash them up and take them out of sight of the coon and tie them off (this will be easy to do because you have already trained them to handle with all of the drag training you have already done with them). The dog or dogs should be very fired up at this point because they have been taken away wanting more. Go to the cage and release the coon. Take the cage back to the truck. Give the coon a good 5 minute head start and then unsap the hounds and let em have at the trail. Sometimes they make a tree and sometimes they make a loss. It does not matter at this point as long as they tried. If or when the pup or pups start losing interest in finding the coon catch them up and put them away for a couple of days so they can think about what just happend. It generally does not take long before the little devils are getting pretty good at finding the released coon. This is when you find new and interesting places to release the coon and start to give him longer and longer head starts. If the dog or dogs do tree and are treeing good, love them up for a few short minutes and pull them off the tree wanting more and put them up. You can even start doing this at night at this point. Once the young prospects are making short work of running and treeing released coon at night it is time for limited night time hunting in area's where coon are sure to be found. The pup should transition pretty quick and is doing it by itself at night with confidence.

I would like to talk about using caged coon to help solve problems in the near future. I hope this makes sense and is helpfull.

LCK,

I just read your above post refering to drags and turn out coons. I have a Blue pup that will turn 4 months next Tues. .... Do you think it is time to lightly start with drags ... as you explained in your first portion of your above post titled "Drags" ??? Or should I Hold off a lil' longer? I have been taking him for walks in the woods on an average of two times a week letting him run loose while we were there. He has constantly got his nose on the ground and anything else he can get it on. He bayed a house cat about 3 weeks ago. ... "the weather hasn't been the greatest here or I would have him in the bush more" ... I have some recent pic.'s of him on the Photo Forum if ya want to check them out, "I don't wanna clutter up your training post here." one of him up on a stump sniffin' it up real good. The post is titled "Some pic.'s of our walk in the woods today ...." Thanks for any advise you can offer.

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Always keep an open mind.
"Your hound depends on you every day, as much as you depend on him every night"