lck posted before that a full brother to sister cross is as common as a windy day in may at his house, if he says it is not too close ,then i believe him...if it did not work for him,he would say so.

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Randy Raper

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I believe some things are being taken completely out of text. If I said anything against line breeding, I don't remember saying it. I simply said that a friend of mine had bred brothers to sisters and had some that were flicted (retarded) or whatever you want to call it. My original post was WHAT IS TOO CLOSE? I was truly wanting to know how close some get. I have made crosses that were line bred but had never done half brother-half sister as I just did. I am not knocking anything anyone does, just simply wanted to know opinions.

i bred half brother to half sister before, no one would give them a chance because they said they were inbred.at that time, even ukc made the papers a differant color , meaning inbred.that was 25 yrs ago.

the only ones that made decent dogs were the ones i kept and hunted myself. the rest were never given a fair chance.

i thought this old dead horse could use another beating or two.

Well, give me about another month and I will let you know if these come out walking sideways or straight ahead. LOL

Just wanted to TRY and answer the question, "How close is too close?" I don't think you can get too close. If you are using truly superior stock and you are doing a good job with selection and culling. If you see some problems with offspring then you need to remove the problems and maybe the problem producers from your breeding stock. What puzzles me is why so many people when they start inbreeding or line breeding seem to forget all about selection and culling and look at ONLY the relationship between the dogs. You still have to choose your breeding stock based on the traits that they possess.
Let me give an example. Let's just suppose that you owned the perfect coon dog, that suited you in every way, I mean he was perfect. If you wanted to try and reproduce him, then you should find a female as nearly like him as possible (if she is related to him that's great, but not necessary). Breed these two together, keep every female from that litter and then breed the one MOST LIKE HER SIRE back to her sire, That's where the selection part comes in. Theoretically you could keep the females from that litter and breed the best (most like sire) back over and over as long as no undesirable traits show up. But my main point here is that you have to select those offspring that have the traits you want and keep breeding them back into the line. It is that selection that makes the line breeding or inbreeding work. It is the line breeding or inbreeding that "fixes" the traits in a line. It's just that too many people are "fixing" mediocrity. We need to have superior stock to embark on a strong inbreeding program.
Sorry to ramble on so long, just had nothing else to do and wanted to voice my opinion.

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Bobby Boulware

ok so what if your dogs has the same dam but different sires...what would that be...i have a male out of my old female and i bred her again to a different stud and am going to keep a female would that be too close

probly a pretty good coondog if you like the dam and the studs she was bred to. it would be linebreeding. dont matter if the lines go back to the male or female. your pups off the cross your talking will have a strong chance to have more of the dams traits then the 2 differant sires, but you will get traits in some of the pups off either one or all 3.the female and both differant sires.
each pup dont get the same mix of genes.,each,some or all will get traits from the sire , dam and grand parents and back. some bloodlines are common to show traits common to the line (strain). line breeding will keep those desired traits from that line.
people use differant definitions of linebreeding and inbreeding,as is obvious in this thread.
anytime you breed 2 of the same breed, you are inbreeding, breeding within a breed. thats how they became purebred dogs.
line breeding is a line or lines going back to the same dog or dogs in a family line.your pups off the same dam would be linebred through her.
half brother to half sister.pups off this cross would have your older dam as grand mother top and bottom.
in my opinion,no cross is too close. if both dogs have the traits and are the type you like. crossing them is how to keep those traits...................TC

very good post. its all about selective breeding, wether your linebreeding or breeding for type (which is exactly what linebreeding is), to get the desired traits common to that family line to a litter of pups. it makes very good sense and is alot more of breeding with a direction if you match traits from both sire and dam wether related or not. if pups get a differant mix from both sire and dam, if both sire and dam have matching traits, the better chance the pups will,because no matter from the sire or dam,its the same type.. breeding selected dogs with the same type traits to get a desired type of coondog.
..since pups get traits from grand parents and back is why linebreeding works. because the family line of dogs will show the same type of traits common back through generations, the same traits that made them that type of dog.i breed for type and by crossing the same type. just makes sense that a related family line of dogs,and breeding selected dogs from that family line with the desired traits, would naturally get you pups with the same type and same traits the family line has always produced.your dead on plottmanb, breeding for type will produce a higher % of decent crosses.breeding the best to the best only works if both are the same type best. what made one the best may not be the same traits that made the other a best.i match traits and type when ever selecting a cross,related dogs or not.i have a litter now ,the sire is a half brother to the mothers grand sire, making the grand sire on the top also the great grand sire on the bottom of the pups, they have many lines goin back from the pups on the top and bottom with a bunch of differant related dogs. but i made the cross because of the type of traits they all have common, all are the same type dog.if you hunted with them you would ask if they are related,because that do it all, the same way as the other.sire,dam,grand sire and dam,their littermates and on back................TC

the best way to get a anser for your qui is to call dave dean the man with the hammer dogs he has been doing it for years that is who i would talk to i like to read all of the dif ideas every body has you all keep writing i will keep reading

how close can u breed? ex: female pup out of the litter mate to my male dog. havent done much breeding and dont want to have messed up pups do to inbreeding. any help will be good.

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Color dont matter as long as the meat is in the tree!!!!

not really a good idea that would be like breeding the daughter to your male dog.Generally you try to keep away from anything that close.Sometimes it may work out but most times their knotheads

yea thats kinda what i was thinkin thanks for the help

pups come out "messed up" because the dogs you bred had a genetic fault in them or their line already and you doubled up on that fault. both having the genetic fault
its a common mistake made by people trying to linebreed and not being selective.
double up on the desired traits and be very selective to find the ones to breed with NO genetic faults to pass on to the pups.

*you can only put faulty genes in a pup if the parents or their lines have the fault to start with.
*you can not create faulty genes by breeding close.
*the genes you get, are from the gene pools already there.

I have been reading this post, and I do think that it brings up a discussion point in which everyone is able to relate. I will say first off that I do not have really any experience breeding hounds. I run two nice blueticks and they work well for me in these brutal Minnesota winters.
On in-breeding/line-breeding. Most of my experience has come from breeding horses. Like hounds, you breed for performace ability, conformation, brains, trainability, and try.
In the early 1900's a guy named Ott Adams stated that "you breed a horse for "type" and speed will take care of itself." What it seems like most people are saying is that breeding hounds is much the same way. Mind, body, ability, and longevity.
One phenomenon that we are seeing now days in the Quarter Horse world, is the lack of quality in many horses. Experts say that this is due to the lack of "line-breeding." These are termed "Shot-gun" horses, there breeding is good, but there is no quality to the individual. Breeders are trying to compliment the other. Ex. Height They then lose the type, and sometimes you don't get what you bred for. Linebreeding/inbreeding helps you to know what you will get.
Times you can get too "tight" in your program and your genetics are so close that individuals may have a physical defect such as being small, maybe a bit crooked but their minds and performace are still superior cause they came from good stock. Sometimes genetic defects will also crop up, such as HYPP with Impressive, and HERDA with Poco Bueno. With your tight bred animals it is crucial that you outcross them on another line, once you feel they are getting to tight, yet still maintain some of your mainstream blood. This will lead to the hybrid vigor seen in many outstanding individuals. Two heavily line-bred individuals will produce amazing offspring. These "outcross" animals are outstanding individuals, but they cannot seem to reproduce as well as the line/in-bred stock.
Bottom line seems to be that if your line-bred seedstock is superior, your offspring will be also. Similar in intelligence, bodytype, color, conformation, and ability. If your seedstock is not, it will definately show. I agree with TC on the "never to close" thought, but you absolutely have to have great individuals.
Looking on this site, I would say that what many people are after is an individual from a great family or breeder. Dogs that hunt, and look like a great dog from their pedigree. Odds are if its line-bred to superior individuals you won't have to worry much.
When you breed, you not only breed to the individual, but to the whole family. We can argue about this forever. My thought is keep your lines clean, and cull what is necessary. Above all breed for a type that is superior in every way, and look for dogs that are the same. Try and not compliment. P.M. me if you have any questions. I am not an expert but I love genetics.

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